I have the same sense of being perplexed as you in this regard: I can’t figure out how a culture that celebrates individuality, freedom and sexual decadence came to attract the fascist element. All I can guess is that it really is just the black clothes that made them feel like they’d be welcome among goths.

I do not find it fair that Mick very casually makes an assumption that neo-folk bands are all pretty much Nazi right-wing bands. It’s also very clear, that regardless of the band’s assumed political beliefs, Mick doesn’t like that style of music. So be it. I prefer to think that neo-folk has as many examples of wretched-ness or beauty as does any other style, genre, or sub-genre of music.

Mick also glances over the fetish/sexual aspect of the Nazi symbolism on clothing. Indeed, I do think that perhaps the whole point of it is to be shocking in some small way; to get a reaction, to let the public know that wearing “dangerous” clothing makes one dangerous, even sixty years after WW2. I think doing so in groups isn’t necessarily a political movement, as much a need for participants to be “dangerous” in a safe, supportive environment. I do agree with Mick that it’s kind of pathetic to wear a swastika publicly or privately, and I thought so back when I saw Siouxsie Sioux and Rozz Williams wear them. On a small scale I like to think I’m able to separate the acts of the attention seeking from actual Nazis, though I admit it would be much harder to do so if I was suddenly faced with a rally of those wearing Nazi regalia.

I think what really bothered me was: Genuine artists in the neo scene can move sideways into other scenes and be seen to be blameless. The rest can rot.

I think this statement so early in Mick’s essay (which gives it a much stronger message than his obvious quip about it being OK to beat on right-wing music fans at Leipzig 2002, which appears later on) is pretty unfair to the many talented musicians who enjoy being in the neo-folk scene; should they be forced to move into other genres to remain respected? Perhaps at gunpoint?

To those who enjoy playing dark folk (or apocalyptic folk or neo-folk) and aren’t Nazi’s, whether they suck musically or not. It’s a flaw in Mick’s logic when an artist that doesn’t fit his mold of sucking and being a Nazi should be forced to move onto another genre for to his hypothesis to hold.

Additionally I think his essay is unfair to those who just enjoy the music, or perhaps the mysticism, and don’t get off on owning an SS uniform. It is equally unfair, perhaps ironically, to the artists in that scene that truly are amazing musicians, regardless of their personal political beliefs.

I was quite saddened by Mick Mercer’s comments on the Guardian article, since I have always enjoyed his writings and was surprised to see him falling into such obvious stereotypes. It seems based in the fact that he doesn’t like neo-folk very much, which is his right (and some of it is quite crap too), but to make such a huge association with it is disingenous, to say the last. The first time I met a London-based black Death In June fan, she laughed about this very issue (since this is the only thing which ever seems to be discussed in relation to DIJ and related bands!) and pointed out that most of the brace ‘n’ para-wearing skinheads at gigs were gay, and usually in couples. This is just an anecdotal account, but surely it illustrates the fallacy of judging someone’s personality and politics by their clothes?

Isn’t that exactly what we goths have had to put up with for decades (along with members of many a subculture)? “No”, we wearily explain for the millionth time, “I’m not a vampire. I don’t even like the whole vampire thing very much. No, I’ve never drunk anybody’s blood. I’m actually a vegetarian. No, I don’t worship Satan.”

Now I suppose we’ll be defending ourselves from accusations of Nazism as well. It’s all very well saying you are only targeting a few “idiots”, but you are doing so on the basis of their clothing, which seems somewhat dubious.

Why is it that it is OK to condone violence against fascism if it is precisely the presumed violence of fascism which puts it beyond the pale? I found this sort of comment more than a little sickening:

At a Treffen event (was it 2002?) some left-wingers attacked the neo-community at some performance. Ironically, the sound of baseball bats against Nazi bones was probably more rhythmical and melodious than the band involved, but when I had people contacting me to see what I thought, it was again noticeable that when I said I thought this was the perfect answer to the problem, the e-mails stopped. Clearly I was being courted as a potential spokesman! Wankers.

Since when has it been acceptable to use violence against someone because of their political opinion, however unattractive? More to the point, you are not referring to a political rally here but to a gig! As far as I was aware, people went to these things to enjoy music, however unmelodic. It may be that the comment was meant flippantly, but then, I suppose Siouxie’s swastika armband was too. And I don’t see anyone claiming that listening to the Banshees is symptomatic of right-wing tendencies. I seem to recall Bowie’s “Nazi salute” sprung out of a period of intense occult interest and perturbed the record-buying public for a while, but no-one seriously believes he’s a Nazi now or that it was anything more than a phase, or even a bit of visual provocation. Suggesting that we should be going up to people in public telling them what to wear seems pretty “fascistic” in itself. As a vegetarian, I consider eating animals to be murder, pure and simple, but I don’t rush up to people eating burgers and slap them out of their hands screaming abuse, because that is no way to behave if we want to live in a (relatively) peaceful society.

I must be screwed! Laibach, Current 93, and Death in June are in my collection. Does this make me a Nazi-supporter?

I really didn’t believe this was an issue in America; I’ve always seen the gothic scene generally as a bunch of awkward intellectuals who embraced diversity. Things may be really different in Europe, but as far as I can say, it’s really unfair to label all neo-folk as Nazi, just because one doesn’t care for that type of music.

The swastika has been used for thousands of years in various cultures as a symbol of the changing seasons, luck, joy, and life. Perhaps the reason why it was adopted by the Third Reich was because Hitler wanted to use this divine symbol to raise himself as a divine entity or ruler of all.

I find it strange that various musicians I like (David Bowie, Siouxsie, Sid Vicious, Rozz Williams) wore it for shock value. It’s a really confusing message. Although the swastika’s meaning is misunderstood, due to the abuse of this symbol, I think it is a really dangerous symbol to wear. I believe more people should take a look at the history of this symbol and find out what it really means. Here’s a link I found that is both interesting and useful:
www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/swastika.html

Kevin – Yes, I don’t like it, so my article came out stressing that – but of course I don’t assume all artists involved are nazis or have a widespread interest in it. Maybe that’s why I say, “I feel sorry for the genuine Pagan artists who have only their belief in genuine gentle Earth matters and their deities, and care nothing for the Nazi creed”? I think – hope – a lot more will have the anti-nazi swastika-in-the-bin logo on their records. Given the deep suspicion cast over the scene in Germany it would be quite natural for artists involved to categorically state they have no truck with such matters. That’s why I say move sideways; in recognising doubts now exist in so many people’s eyes, clarification is required. The orginal article which sparked this off shows how people in and around the scene, on both sides, know how pervasive the nazi elements are in invading the scene (activists, not artists) and that changes the scene itself. They know more than me. They give the article its authenticity and that’s what I was reponding to. I knew Germans in the early to mid 90’s who had already highlighted such a shift in behaviour. I am not anti neo-folk artists, as artists, but when a scene becomes soured by dark currents encircling it and then infecting, it reminds me of how Punk became similarly polluted by ring wing thugs with the Oi movement in the UK.

As for the Fetish element, I think adults dressing as nazis in public – I couldn’t care less what their wholly private pursuits are – and thinking they’re being risque is pathetic and insulting to others, which is why it’s arrogant.

I accept I have a blunt style sometimes, but I’m prepared to say what I think, where a lot won’t touch it, and I try and temper any personal bias with perspective gained from previous experiences.

Ryan – At no point do I say ALL neo-folk is Nazi.

Anyone who laughs about DIJ’s early antics doesn't know what’s involved. It wasn’t funny in the slightest. If they’re still regarded with suspicion (including being monitored by anti-fascist groups) it’s their own fault.

Ereshkigal – as a vegetarian I don’t accost meat-eaters either, but my girlfriend likes burgers. Up to her. At the Treffen event, the people attacked had turned up wearing nazi insignia and outfits mimicking Hitler Youth costumes (not people turning up and being taken/mistaken for nazis). Find it sickening if you like, but from my experience, through several decades, if people aren’t confronted physically they go on and on and the situation will worsen. Most of the nazi skinheads who attended gigs during the late 70’s/early 80’s didn’t bother with political rallies. They just turned up in their droves at gigs, because they found that form of intimidation safer. When punks fought back things improved and they crept away. We’d all like a delightful peaceful world – but that solves nothing when a situation turns sour.

I’m a German Goth who has lived in London (UK) for the past 10 years. Given that both “Flirting With Hitler” and “Not Just The Clothes” indulge in a fair amount of “Kraut bashing”, I’m writing in defence of Germany and the German Goth scene.

I have no sympathies whatsoever for Nazi and related ideas, I’m not into Black Metal or Neo-Folk and I don’t own or wear Nazi memorabilia but I’m concerned that “Flirting With Hitler” apparently served as the catalyst for the Goths and Neo-Nazis feature. I can understand the “concerned reader’s” reaction to the article (I’d be as horrified as the next Goth if our subculture was to become a breeding ground for Neo-Nazis). It is, however, important to be aware that the newspaper in which the article appeared is notorious for having a real bee in its bonnet about Goths. The Guardian was one of the first British newspapers to blame Goths for the Columbine high school shooting and has since printed a number of articles on Goths that have all been extremely negative. “Flirting With Hitler” represents the highlight of the Guardian’s efforts so far.

I agree that, on the surface, the article may appear to be well researched but upon closer inspection, there are serious flaws. While it starts out saying that only a small percentage of German Goths are Neo-Nazis it then goes on to claim that the percentage is rising (without offering any credible proof). It does not mention any of the anti-far right initiatives within the German Goth scene and doesn’t even distinguish between Goth on the one hand and Black Metal and Neo-Folk on the other but just lumps them all together, thus creating a bigger “pool” of bands and individuals (e.g. Henrik Moebius) to warn the Guardian’s readership about. As a result, the article ends up sounding as if the far right is infiltrating the German Goth scene virtually unopposed, which is totally untrue.

In its print version in the Guardian’s weekend magazine, the article was spread over several pages, showing pictures of “Nuremberg Rally” Goths (dressed in black – not in uniforms), as opposed to “normal” Goths (dressed in white). There were swastikas and SS runes printed next to the pictures in a manner that left it unclear if they were decoration at a gig, part of somebody’s outfit, taken from a CD cover or just put there by the Guardian to prove its point. That’s hardly what I consider “balanced” reporting.

“Flirting With Hitler” caused a storm of protest amongst Goths in the UK when it originally appeared and the Guardian received a flood of complaint letters (including one from me). While there was a wealth of different opinions, the vast majority of UK Goths disagreed profoundly with the “findings” of the article, as, for example, this thread from the uk.people.gothic newsgroup illustrates (there was another excellent thread on slashgoth.org but it seems to have become the victim of the server belly-up that wiped out their archives).

Sadly, not only the Guardian but also Mick Mercer portrays all Germans as potential Nazis who “always had the problem. Hell, they nurtured it until it exploded, and since the war, the wounds have been constantly licked and allowed to fester once more.” He has evidently no idea what he is talking about. Having lived in Germany for 20+ years, I can assure you that Germans are doing anything but “licking their wounds”. I’m afraid I never read your interview with Mindy Kumbalek but I can confirm that the far right is indeed taken very seriously in Germany, perhaps more than in other countries, and I’m grateful that you included her statement as a footnote.

Germany has a whole range of anti-Nazi laws, not because they are badly needed to contain the rampant support for far right groups but to make sure that history doesn’t repeat itself, for whatever reason. For example, it is illegal to buy, sell, own, display or wear Nazi symbols, as is doing the Hitler salute (it carries a prison sentence of 4 years). I was quite shocked when I discovered that in the UK, a country that is positively obsessed with WWII and frequently criticised for it, you can buy Nazi memorabilia freely at any flea market.

German kids are taught as soon as they are old enough to understand that something like the Third Reich must never happen again. My school went to great lengths to make us kids understand how shameful Germany’s Nazi past was, to the point of us feeling almost guilty for being German. They did certainly not try to make excuses for WWII and the Holocaust or bring us up to be good little Nazis. Instead, amongst other things, we were shipped to Auschwitz on a school trip to show us the horrible things Germans had done in the not-so-distant past and were not allowed to talk, chew gum or wear a scrap of makeup while we were there. It was traumatic for a bunch of 16 year olds, as I’m sure it was meant to be.

Far right (and far left) political activity in Germany is constantly monitored by the Verfassungsschutz, which reports annually on its findings. I actually read the entire 2001 edition of the Verfassungsschutzbericht after reading the Guardian article (2002 hadn’t been published yet). It mentions exactly one band as being considered far right (Von Thronstahl) and one music label (Signal) carrying “a small handful” of “Darkwave” bands that are seen as far right because they are on that particular label. But on every occasion when mentioning the Goth scene, the report also states clearly that there are only very few bands that fall into that category and that the scene as a whole is to be considered harmless. Even in the Guardian article, Mr Boos (the boss of the Verfassungsschutz) is quoted as saying that the Goth scene is “not to be confused with right-wing extremism” and that the use of Nazi symbols is in almost all cases done for shock value, not for political reasons. The overall findings of the Verfassungsschutz on far right political activity in Germany are that, while far right groups and their supporters are not increasing in numbers, the existing groups are becoming more prone to violence. While this is sad, it actually contradicts the article’s claim that the far right is gaining ground in Germany (a fact its author conveniently ignored).

German Goths aren’t any closer to being Neo-Nazis or any more susceptible to Nazi propaganda than UK or US Goths. On the contrary, I believe that German Goths are probably more acutely aware of far right influences, due to the fact that Germans are constantly reminded about their shameful past (there have been cases where bands have been criticised purely for singing in German instead of English). I’m not denying that far right elements are trying to infiltrate the German Goth scene via the Black Metal and Neo-Folk fringes. However, the German Goth scene is aware of that and there are numerous organisations that are working to raise awareness within the scene, for example Gothics Culture e.V. and Gruftis Gegen Rechts. Articles on the subject have appeared in major German Goth magazines like Zillo and Gothic and bands like Das Ich, who are tirelessly promoting the Gothic subculture have been speaking out against the far right for years.

The fact that the German Goth scene is one of the largest and most prominent in the world is not connected to a general rise of Nazism in Germany, but to the fact that the most popular Goth bands (and I mean Goth and related, not Black Metal or Neo-Folk) are currently German. Consequently, the German Goth scene is thriving. Of course, there are assholes in every demographic group and Goths are no exception. Unfortunately, the bigger the demographic group the bigger its contingent of assholes and in Germany there are just more Goths per capita than anywhere else. As a result, the contingent of assholes within the German Goth scene is probably bigger as well, especially around the fringes. The Rudas were a particularly ugly example of that. We should, however, be careful not to fall into the same trap as the author of “Flirting With Hitler” or indeed Mick Mercer and make sweeping assumptions based on a few deluded individuals, aided by prejudice.

I’m sorry if this post has turned into a sort of mammoth rant but this is a topic I feel very strongly about. Being German and a Goth, it is a bit of a“double whammy” for me. It is unpleasant enough to be seen as a suicidal, baby-sacrificing, blood-drinking psycho killer by certain “concerned” members of the public. I can very well do without the Nazi tag. Attempted infiltration of the Goth scene by far right elements is not an exclusively German phenomenon, just as Black Metal and Neo-Folk are not predominantly German and many Neo-Folk bands (and most Black Metal bands) aren’t German either. Yet it is a sad fact that, no matter how young you are or what your political conviction, if you happen to be German people automatically assume that you “carry the Nazi gene” and that it is only a matter of time and circumstance until your true colours start shining through. Having lived in the UK since 1993, I know what I’m talking about.

Mick Mercer writes that “it isn’t a big problem in the UK, that’s for sure. We have the far right growing because of the asylum issue running out of control; ours will die down again once the problem is stabilised”. Such confidence in an innate “goodness” based on your nationality is as delusional as it is dangerous. Delusional because far right tendencies, such as xenophobia, exist in every country and dangerous because the notion that they are a national character trait and consequently some nationalities are immune to it creates a false sense of security.

I want to say right up front that I agree with Mercer’s disdainful attitude toward anyone who embraces Nazism for its aesthetic appeal (or for any other reason actually). I do have to disagree with him on one count however. Mercer writes, “Everything to do with Nazis is the complete opposite of Goth, which stands for the soppier side of romantic imagery and on its deeper side it’s the rights and dignity and intelligence of the individual.” Granted, I come to goth by way of late eighteenth- and nineteenth-century Gothic literature, but Gothicism in general is fascinated by moral transgression, morbidity and, notably, perverse power dynamics of dominance and submission. The titillation of scenes in Matthew “Monk” Lewis, Radcliffe, Poe, Stoker and even contemporary gothicists such as Rice frequently derives from quasi-pornographic sequences in which one character exercises domination over another. Nazism is a contemporary manifestation of this desire to exercise control over others (or to serve as voyeur to such sequences) that is clearly a dark fantasy at the root of much Gothic literature... and music.

Interrogating the appeal of Nazism to contemporary goths could potentially lead to some disturbing revelations about the appeal of goth more generally. I’m not disagreeing with Mercer’s vigorous rejection of Nazism. However, I am suggesting that a knee-jerk rejection of any association of goth with Nazism obscures larger questions about what goth actually is – however unsettling those revelations may be.

While I am quite concerned with the issue of adopting Nazi symbolism and bearing it as fashion, I am also concerned with Mercer’s attitude towards beating those who dress that way. Such mentality is just as destructive as the Nazi’s, as turning fascism into fashion, so on and so forth. We all need to strive to become more and more educated in all regards and sympathetic and/or empathetic to the world around us. It is a task indeed to try to “love your neighbor”... and I regret that I’ve used such a cheesy quote. Perhaps “Do to your neighbor as you would do to yourself” might work better, but we tend to inflict a good bit of destruction and harm upon ourselves, so that might not work either... but at the rate that we’re going by creating bigger and bigger gaps between one another based on various differences, soon everyone can do whatever the hell they want without any regards for the people they might hurt along the way. We need to take responsibilty for our actions and see how they effect us (consciously or unconsciously) and how that precipitates externally.

I think it is important to stand up for humanitarian values and that may mean confronting someone on their choice of clothing. Even more, it’s important to come together and try to understand each other and why we make the choices we do. Sometimes we have no choice, but to make assumptions. However, given the opportunity to learn more, we should do so.

But I have an additional issue. Not only has fascism/Nazism taken a root in gothic fashion and music, but so has violence and violent imagery. Why doesn’t this ever get addressed in the goth scene? Why is violence ok, but not fascism/Nazism? What’s the difference? (Editor’s Note: That’s also an interesting point. Since when did guns become a fashion accessory?)

I am not a nazi, however I cringe everytime I see extreme left wing bands use communist imagery. My family is from Eastern Europe, but it seems that communists get a free pass. Terms like “comrad” and “solidarity” upset my family very much. I like Neo-Folk and also enjoy military history, I do own both Russian and German military equipment from the period. I sometimes wear my Russian or German coats outside, but only out of interests.

And if the kids do want to wear a swastika, it is truly an offensive symbol used by assholes, if we are in free societies they should be allowed to do so.

You give a free pass to people attacking alleged nazis at the Neo-Folk with baseball bats... Maybe you should of said it’s not ok for anyone to use weapons or violence against people despite their ideas or beliefs.